A2A Comment

[Deleted]

Well, I've done it again. Stuck my foot in it without checking first. When Carm brought up the issue about the wheel barrowing of the A2A 182 (and likely the 172), that rang a bell with me. I've not got a lot of time in the machine and I should have checked this out more thoroughly before saying anything. While I think the aircraft is excellent in almost every other way, this is a MAJOR issue, and I'm surprised A2A hasn't corrected it (I will raise a ticket with them). They should have. It's possible to wheel barrow a 182, but not THAT easily. It's also waaay too hard to start. I forgot this one was fuel injected, but even so, I never failed to get the 185 or 206 running IRL (although at times they were a REAL bitch!!), unlike this one. Lastly the mags in this machine foul way too easily. That's nuts. In over 17 years of flying, I only once had a severe case of plugs fouling where I was concerned and where we took off without them being completely cleared (Aztec, and I did end up "losing" an engine in flight, but it was a diabolical plot by my instructor, although the plugs really were fouled). Anyway, long story short, I lead people astray on this one. After spending some time with it last night, I realized that there were more issues than I remember and I should have kept my mouth shut until I had spent some more time in it.

I've done this more than once unfortunately, and I apologise for that. From now on, I'm not giving any comments on aircraft (and probably scenery) because it can give totally the wrong impression. If I have an airplane, and someone is asking about it, I'll only say if I like it or not, but I'm not giving any recommendations. I'm not convinced my opinions are all that trustworthy at this point.

Sorry if I led people astray here. My bad.

[Bushpounder]

I remember running our Aztec almost to takeoff power with the mixture pulled back a bit to clean up the plugs. (prior to us putting two rebuilts on!) Gotta do what ya gotta do! When I was getting my multi, our old Apache was always losing engines too. Wish the emergency checklist read something like: Student can eject Flight Instructor if engine outs exceed 6 in one hour. Hell, I've had four in what was to be a touch and go - one on the initial t/o roll (simulated), one during climb out (full out/restarted), one on downwind (full out/restarted), one on final (full out/ wouldn't restart - started got too hot). Being it refused to start again on the final one, it was a full stop. Your input is ALWAYS valuable to me. I'd rather hear it than not.

BP;)

[Deleted]

I have the A2A 182T and have experienced no "wheelbarrowing". As far as I can tell the only person participating in the thread that addresses this issue at A2A that has any 182T time is Scott of A2A. Here's what he says...

The Cessna 182T is a very different aircraft to the 182P. The T model has a completely different tail structure, and the takeoff trim isn't neutral, but nose down trim. The 182T we flew was properly rigged, and it would not fly off on it's own. We exceeded 100kts and the plane was still planted. You must rotate the 182T otherwise it won't lift off (it wasn't until > 120kts ias until the plane started to climb with zero back pressure on the yoke). This is the opposite of the 172R which just launches off the runway, nose up and requires nose down trim action for climb.

During development we discussed this behavior with Cessna engineers, and nobody was willing to tell us why the 182T has such a strong nose-down tendency on takeoff. We speculated this is due to the fact that many 182 owners fly the plane at gross weight, with a lot of weight in the baggage, and this nose down trim for takeoff is to make the plane more stable (safer) when heavily loaded and aft CG.

Fortunately, the solution is simple for the 182T pilot. If this bothers you (this nose down trim doesn't bother me, btw, I like a heavy nose on takeoff), just give the plane more nose up trim for takeoff when lightly loaded. If you want to know what neutral trim is, which may be reminiscent of your 182P experiences, look at the physical trim on the elevator and move it until it's neutral. Then note this in the cockpit.

Scott.

[pivo11]

So if I understand you, the A2A 182 is the T model and the folks what are complaining about the "wheelbarrowing" think it is a P model?  Why would that be?   Is the P model more popular, so that people would just assume that the A2A 182 was a P?  Or did they just not read the manual?   

Any gate, I just wheelbarrowed my Tri-Pacer trying to get in to Menari, on PNG.  It looked like such a nice approach, until I saw the airspeed.    

[pivo11]

Jan 28, 2015 10:42:18 GMT -5 Bushpounder said:

I remember running our Aztec almost to takeoff power with the mixture pulled back a bit to clean up the plugs.
BP;)

    And say good-bye to the valves! 

[pivo11]

@glenn:

Jan 28, 2015 10:42:18 GMT -5 Bushpounder said:

Your input is ALWAYS valuable to me. I'd rather hear it than not.

BP;)

I concur.  Visiting hours should be restricted though. 

[Bushpounder]

Jan 28, 2015 13:43:02 GMT -5 pivo11 said:

Jan 28, 2015 10:42:18 GMT -5 Bushpounder said:

I remember running our Aztec almost to takeoff power with the mixture pulled back a bit to clean up the plugs.
BP;)

    And say good-bye to the valves! 

It's only done for a few seconds - as soon as the rpms smooth out, then full rich again. Never hurt a thing.

BP;)

[olderndirt]

This from an outfit that provides flight training and sells the C182T.  Seems to contradict the statements from A2A - no nose down trim for takeoff nor unusual elevator use.  When you lift the nose at 50-60 KIAS, the wing flies - PFM.
Cessna 182T
VH-SDN
Last revised: 11 November 2013
© 2013 Airborne Aviation Pty Ltd
www.airborne-aviation.com.au

14. Elevator Trim -- SET for takeoff.
NORMAL TAKEOFF
1. Wing Flaps -- 0º.
2. Power -- FULL THROTTLE and 2400 RPM.
3. Mixture -- RICH (mixture may be leaned to Maximum Power Fuel Flow
placard value).
4. Checks -- REVS/MAP achieved, AIRSPEED rising, GAUGES in the green.
5. Elevator Control -- LIFT NOSE WHEEL at 50-60 KIAS.
6. Climb Speed -- 80 KIAS (flaps 0º).
7. Wing Flaps -- RETRACT.
SHORT FIELD TAKEOFF
1. Wing Flaps -- 20º degrees.
2. Foot Brakes -- APPLY.
3. Power -- FULL THROTTLE and 2400RPM.
4. Mixture -- Lean to obtain Maximum Power Fuel Flow placard value.
5. Brakes -- RELEASE.
6. Checks -- REVS/MAP achieved, AIRSPEED rising, GAUGES in the green.
7. Elevator Control -- MAINTAIN SLIGHTLY TAIL LOW ATTITUDE.
8. Climb Speed -- 58 KIAS (Until all obstacles are cleared).
9. Wing Flaps -- RETRACT slowly after reaching 70 KIAS.

[Bushpounder]

Did they read their own checklist? Normal takeoff - Wing Flaps - 0 degrees. Step 7 - Wing Flaps - Retract. Why? Not in use!!!! I hate it when unnecessary crap is put onto a checklist! Rant over.

BP;)

[Deleted]

This from an outfit that provides flight training and sells the C182T. Seems to contradict the statements from A2A - no nose down trim for takeoff nor unusual elevator use. When you lift the nose at 50-60 KIAS, the wing flies - PFM.

I think what Scott at A2A is trying to say is that with neutral trim it's nose heavy. So when you reach flying speed you actually have to rotate the aircraft, not just wait for it to fly off. As in the checklist you posted, step 5: LIFT NOSE WHEEL at 50-60 KIAS. Don't wait for it to fly off. Nothing in that checklist is inconsistent with what Scott said.

14. Elevator Trim -- SET for takeoff.

That's kind of generic isn't it?

[olderndirt]

Jan 28, 2015 23:48:50 GMT -5 @crash said:

This from an outfit that provides flight training and sells the C182T. Seems to contradict the statements from A2A - no nose down trim for takeoff nor unusual elevator use. When you lift the nose at 50-60 KIAS, the wing flies - PFM.

I think what Scott at A2A is trying to say is that with neutral trim it's nose heavy. So when you reach flying speed you actually have to rotate the aircraft, not just wait for it to fly off. As in the checklist you posted, step 5: LIFT NOSE WHEEL at 50-60 KIAS. Don't wait for it to fly off. Nothing in that checklist is inconsistent with what Scott said.

14. Elevator Trim -- SET for takeoff.

That's kind of generic isn't it?  Yes and often overlooked.  If it's nose heavy and within the CG envelope, the takeoff trim should be marked in a more nose up position, alleviating the back pressure needed to raise the nose.  You have to rotate all nosewheel planes to position the wings for flight.  Their wings' angle of incidence is too shallow for it to fly off by itself - different with a taildragger.  What Scott may have meant to say. 

[Bushpounder]

I think this is where experience fits in. I remember on a 150, I would set the trim about 1/4 inch under takeoff. That was an approximate, as each plane is rigged just slightly differently. However, it was close on EVERY 150. The bigger Cessnas were the same as were all the other planes. Once you flew one a couple of times, you knew the plane and could set the trim as you liked it for any flight condition. What makes it easier in a real plane is that you get the feeling through the seat of your pants when things happen. There is no feeling in the sim. It is 100% all mechanical.

BP;)

[Deleted]

I think you are right on there, Don.
Carm.

[Deleted]

Jan 29, 2015 5:28:03 GMT -5 Bushpounder said:

There is no feeling in the sim. It is 100% all mechanical.

BP;)

Actually, part mechanical (your input devices) and the rest computational (FSX itself).

I understand what your saying though. I felt the same about a motorcycle road racing game I had, I never got the sensation of actually road racing a motorcycle which I had done in the real world.

[Bushpounder]

Exactly! If you can't feel the lean, it's hard to know when the bike and you are going to depart! LOL!

BP;)